To read a recap of this episode of “Chatter Up!” check out the article written here. If you’d prefer to read his full story with Japanese baseball, check out our writeup of his tale, linked here.
Until the 1990s, Nippon Professional Baseball (NPB) was a one-way street: foreign players could come in, but Japanese players could not leave to play abroad. Further, just like in Major League Baseball before the advent of free agency in the 1970s, Japanese owners only tendered seemingly unfair contracts that bound players to their teams and limited their professional options. But when superstars such as Hideo Nomo, Hideki Irabu and Alfonso Soriano made the jump to Major League Baseball (MLB), they opened the door for cooperation and new working agreements between the two leagues.
Who was the common trait between these players? None other than the first professional sports agent in Japan, Don Nomura, who weaponized the NPB’s hard rules against them and began building a bridge for Japanese talent to cross the Pacific and play in the United States. On August 13, Nomura joined JapanBall’s “Chatter Up!” to discuss his negotiation tactics, his relationships with Soriano and Nomo, and his own ideas for the future of the Japanese game.
Shane:
All right, I know people know the basics of Don’s story, but I’m going to do a quick introduction just because it’s a pretty interesting one, and can form the basis maybe for some questions. So let’s try to run through this relatively quickly here. He’s best known for his trailblazing role in Hideo Nomo’s transition to the [Los Angeles] Dodgers from the [Kintetsu] Buffaloes. But his whole story is pretty interesting, so I wanted to just point out some of those tidbits for you all.
So he’s born in Tokyo and raised in Japan, he is of mixed-race, Japanese and American, something that wasn’t exactly well received at the time, and as far as I know, it had an impression on his childhood, which I’d like to talk about a little bit. He was an athletic and some would say maybe rebellious young athlete in Japan, and then went on to play at Cal-Poly in California [and] played baseball there. After college he signed with the Swallows in NPB and played in their minor leagues. Around the same time, he was adopted by his mother’s husband, the late baseball legend Katsuya Nomura. Around that time, he wrapped up his playing career and moved to LA, where he eventually purchased the Salinas Spurs in the Class A California League, and he had a player named Mac Suzuki, a fascinating young prospect with an interesting story in his own right; Don became his agent, Mac signed a big contract with the Mariners and that kind of put Don in the agent world.
From there, he sought to represent an NPB player that wanted to come to the big leagues, which eventually led him to Nomo. [He] and Nomo worked the system to join the Dodgers, and the baseball world would really never be the same in a lot of ways. After that, he represented a couple more players in really interesting, complex cases: Hideki Irabu and Alfonso Soriano. And all that work led to them really reworking the whole system between Japan and the United States with baseball players, so he is right in the middle of all of that. Since then, he’s represented a number of other players such as Yu Darvish, Kenta Maeda, and his agency Amuse Sports represents dozens of Japanese ballplayers and also a lot of American ball players that played in Japan and even soccer players too. So that’s the quick two minute rundown I hope I covered enough for you there Don.
So I just wanted to start in the beginning with a couple questions, and then we’ll open it up to everyone else. Growing up in Japan, it seems like maybe you didn’t have quite the typical Japanese experience. You’ve never been known to be a conformer and had a different family background; so what was your childhood like in Japan and do you feel that helped form the basis of what your professional life ended up being?
Don:
I don’t know how my life ended up, but certainly the environment really shaped me up. I think living in a country where I thought was home and growing up in a one-race nation was pretty tough. Right after the war, realizing you kind of don’t understand the racial bias stuff, but you’re throwing in there and growing in there. But luckily, I went to an international school where a lot of kids like myself were there, so that kind of helped me, starting to understand and all that. And today, I do appreciate my father, my stepfather and my mother, that I was born and raised in Japan. It really shaped a lot of things and [helped] me to understand. Growing up with lots of international kids, that was a really good experience for me.
Shane:
Yeah, sounds like it. I imagine it helped you learn a lot of different things, going through and meeting different types of people, that a lot of people don’t get to do in Japan. When you went to college and you ended up playing in the minor leagues in Japan for a little bit, that would have been your first impression of professional baseball, right? What was your impression then, after that experience?
Don:
It was very tough. I went to a Japanese high school to play or practice baseball during my high school years, when we had three-month summer vacations, so I knew the toughness of the practice and all that Japanese baseball, but getting into Japanese professional baseball was just another level of toughness; dealing with adults, people 10, 15 years older than yourself, coaches a lot older. So it was a totally different environment for me, it wasn’t very easy. This is not something I dreamed of and hoped to make a living in. After maybe two years I thought this is not my place.
Shane:
So if you felt that way then what made you want to buy the Spurs? Was it just that you didn’t want to be a player but you still wanted to be in baseball?
Don:
Yes, I wanted to be in baseball. I got released after my fourth year, I moved out of Japan, moved to California. Eventually I wanted to get back into baseball in some capacity, coaching, scouting, learning more about front office, how baseball is run. And I had a chance to buy a team where I wanted to bring Japanese players over so they can get the experience of playing baseball games, rather than practicing nine-to-five every day.
Shane:
Yeah, interesting. I can’t talk about the Spurs without talking about Mac. Can you talk a little bit about how you got in touch with him and his story? If I’m not mistaken, you both got kicked out of high school for fighting, is that right?
Don:
Yeah, we have the same past. Yes, we do. Maybe that got us together maybe. Mac, I first met him when he was [in the] second year of his junior high school in Japan. I used to coach a junior high school team in Japan back in the late 80s and early 90s, and we formed a tour every year to go down to San Diego, [and] participate at Tony Gwynn’s baseball school for about five days. So he came as a participant from Osaka. He was very well talented. I mean, he threw hard, he ran well, he could hit the ball. So I caught him one afternoon and told him ‘hey, keep playing the game, you might make it someday.’ Then, three years later, his coach calls and says, ‘I need a place from Mac to play because he just got kicked out of school.’ And in Japan, if you don’t belong to a high school baseball association, you basically have no place to play baseball. So, I said, ‘as long as he follows our rules, he can be a clubby, work for the club, practice for the club, and then see how he develops within a year or two.’ So that was kind of where I brought Mac Suzuki into Salinas with the ball team.
Shane:
That’s very cool, his story is a fascinating one. I’m glad to see that he’s still involved in the game in Japan, right?
Don:
I believe he has a baseball school down in Shogo and teaches a lot of kids.
Shane:
I’m going to go to a couple guests here who have hands raised. And we’ll just jump in with guest questions. Bob, I’m going to you first.
Bob:
Feel free to say ‘no comment’ if you can, but years ago, I went to the Dominican Republic and as you know, the Hiroshima Carp have a minor league team down there. And there was an article in Spanish that I couldn’t really read, I gave it to my co-worker. And the co-worker basically said, ‘oh, this is an article about Alfonso Soriano and they interviewed his mom,’ and according to his mom, she claimed that Soriano had been kidnapped, and she hadn’t seen him in years. So I don’t know if there’s any truth to that story, but it’s been bothering me for about 30 years or so when I read the article.
Don:
Bob, I don’t know the exact answer to that, but there Hiroshima has an academy operat[ing] down in Santo Domingo, where Soriano was born and raised. But yeah, they take him to the academy. they sign a minor league contract, and if they’re good enough, they’ll come to Japan. So they might stay away for a year, maybe even two years. But I don’t think he was kidnapped. He was basically playing ball either in the academy or in Japan. As a note, Hiroshima has been doing a very good job with developing their young Dominican kids, like [Xavier] Batista, [Geronimo] Franzua, and [Alejandro] Mejia and those are a lot of the released players they sign and they develop them. Soriano was never signed professionally. So he signed when he was I think either 16 or 17 with the Hiroshima Carp and he didn’t explode in Japan, but he certainly had a lot of talent. And after all what he done in big leagues was amazing.
Bob:
And it could have been an exaggeration but I just thought it was interesting and it’s been bothering me for 30 years and then lo and behold, I hear you’re coming on so I had to at least ask it.
Don:
And now you can go to bed at night better.
Shane:
It seems like perhaps it was like a metaphorical kidnapping because I mean, Don if you don’t mind, I’d be curious to hear a little bit more detail about that story. It seems like Soriano maybe didn’t quite know what he was getting into, or exactly how it played out. But it seems like he didn’t really have a lot of options there. And it wasn’t necessarily a fair situation from when he signed.
Don:
A lot of the players signed contracts without knowing what they get into, so it’s important to have agents. I think they don’t quite understand what they’re signing on to, especially the reservation system they have in Japan is very long and tough.
Shane:
Yeah. He’s such a toolsy, athletic player, when he signed with the Carp [it was] because he wasn’t getting any offers from MLB teams?
Don:
That’s my understanding. Yeah, nobody signed him. He didn’t actually run well, when he was 15, 16; he was very slow. He had a pretty good arm, but that’s really about it. So everybody passed on him and Hiroshima signed him and took him to Japan and developed him.
Shane:
Interesting. Maybe he is just the kind of awkward kid [who] still hadn’t grown.
Don:
Some guys bloom later and some guys bloom early. And you know, it depends on each individual I guess.
Shane:
Cool. Coop had a question about this topic so I’m going to go to him.
Coop:
Thank you. Hey Don, pleasure to see you. So my question was, when I was reading about this topic to prepare for this is that the Soriano thing kind of led to a new thing with the MLB especially for retirement with the new working agreement? Do you consider this to be a major change in the environment for Japanese players com[ing] to the MLB and then maybe more so in the Dominican Republic as well?
Don:
That’s a very hard question to answer. I don’t exactly think it triggered any changes, because I think it was more Hideki Irabu’s situation that kind of brought the changes to the US-Japan relationship. Alfonso certainly helped in that process of closing up the gaps and loopholes between the US and Japan regarding the retired ballplayer. I wanted to add on to say that, you know, we didn’t voluntarily retire. We were ready to sign if we [were] granted winning on the arbitration by the arbitrators in Japan. Unfortunately, he did not win and we thought he should be paid fairly at the average of what the foreign players were making at that time. But they didn’t put that into consideration, so our other route was to retire. And that was a rule of Japanese baseball, if you didn’t sign a contract, they forced you to retire. So he was forced to retire. He needs to make a living. And the other option was to go play where professional baseball was, and that was the United States.
Shane:
I didn’t realize that that was kind of the option they all were facing anyways, retire or play. It was almost just like, ‘hey, this is the system you set up.’
Don:
Exactly. So it’s like, take it or leave it. So you know, it was a one way street.
Shane:
I gotta go to another question here from Zack.
Zack:
First of all, Don, it’s a pleasure to meet you. You are someone who I’ve always wanted to get to know more about. I love your story. I have two questions for you. My first one is, when negotiating contracts for your clients, what are some of the negotiation tactics you are using? And how do you manage your clients’ expectations about their new contract?
Don:
We collect data on what the player’s market value is based upon what the market is. And then we talk with the player before we go into any kind of negotiations, what we think he’s worth in the open market, or what he’s worth based upon what his numbers were from the previous year and previous years, the accumulation of what he has done. It’s easier in the United States to come up with the exact numbers because all the data of player salaries and all that is basically given to us and it’s very open. Japan, on the other hand, is very closed. So it’s sometimes hard, we have to collect some information through newspapers and word of mouth what the players are making and some way we collect data and that’s how we negotiate our contract.
Zack:
Okay, and my second question is ,I’m thinking about becoming an MLBPA agent at some point in my lifetime, do you recommend I get certified and how is the best way to prepare for this?
Don:
Don’t. I think the trend is there’s a lot of lawyers in the industry who become agents, which means they haven’t been to court or worked at a lawyers’ office or anything like that, but they have a law degree which really helps because you’re dealing with lots of lawyers at the Players’ Association, with the ownership as well. I tend to like people understanding more of the accounting issue, the numbers, studying data. I think that’s where you want to kind of focus on. And obviously, you have to take the test to become a certified agent. I support you to take the test to understand how baseball’s run. But I also want you to read a history of Major League Baseball, and one of the best book[s] I read was by Marvin Miller. I forgot the name of the title, but this will help you understand how players develop, why the union has developed and what are indeed important things for players to have in the future. A trusted agent who understands the system, who understands the labor law, who understands data. So that’s new stuff, the data, you know, the spin rates, launch angles and you know, all this is going to be very important in the future. So those are saying, I think you really have to study and learn, and make it into a piece of your armor to be prepared in the future for representing baseball players. I hope I answered your question correctly.
Shane:
That book is “A Whole Different Ballgame.” It’s a great book. Moving on to Ian.
Ian:
Hi Don, so I read one of Robert Whiting’s books, I think it was “The Meaning of Ichiro,” and it talked about Hideo Nomo and it talked a lot about how vilified he was by going to America but then Nomo was extremely popular when he did well. Did that surprise you that all that hate went away?
Don:
Yes. I didn’t understand back then why, but as I grew older and we see what’s going on today in the media market, where the money is, people tend to rush in. And when they saw Hideo leaving Japan, it was all news that they can get ratings on. And once he started doing well, it just turned everything around because they needed to focus on him, get the ratings. And every day, it was Hideo’s name on the front page of every sporting paper, and people bought that. So it was a surprise, but as I look back and kind of look [at] what happened to how the market evolved, I think it was just a natural way of media shifting from negative to positive. Just the way it is, I guess.
Shane:
I’m curious in that process. So the criticism was pretty relentless in the beginning, and obviously you had to go through a lot of hurdles and have some uncomfortable meetings and whatnot. At what point [were] you and Nomo able to finally kind of sit back and enjoy what you had accomplished?
Don:
We never really talked about that. But I think this whole thing I think really supported him because of this whole negativity that was against him, and I think it really helped him make sure that he had to do well just to overcome, and that became an energizer for him. It just kept on and on and on and on. After Hideo, I had Hideki Irabu [and] Soriano, and so to me, it was a never ending thing. But for Hideo, I think after the first year, I think he was relieved for many things. I think people kind of respected him, looked at him differently. But above all, I think, you know, Peter O’Malley (the then-owner of the Los Angeles Dodgers) played a very strong role in helping and supporting Hideo from day one, from the negative to all the way to the positive, and he basically never changed his position, whether Hideo did well or not. So, you know, a lot of people supported him. Even Tommy Lasorda and all the people, the staff during that period.
Shane:
That’s great to hear. During the Nomo process, if I’m not mistaken, you were kind of the first agent to represent a player in his negotiations with the team in Japan, and read that you were kicked out of some meetings? What was your reaction to that? And what was Nomo’s reaction to that? Who was leading the way there? I imagine it was an uncomfortable situation.
Don:
I’m kind of used to being kicked out. I was kicked out of school, out of office. Hideo knew that I was not allowed but he said, ‘let’s go.’ We went in together. They kicked me out. Hideo says ‘I’m leaving with you’ to the general manager then, so he was very cooperative. That’s the kind of client you want to have, that can support you and you can support him together. And that makes good synergy as a team.
Shane:
Yeah. Sounds like it. He was very critical of the baseball establishment in Japan, and [for] the players you’ve represented since then, is that a common thing? Where the players that leave maybe don’t like the establishment there? Or has that evolved or they’re not so upset by it? Is Nomo really just a unique case in that way?
Don:
I don’t think he was not happy with the establishment, I think his dream was to play in Major League Baseball, he just didn’t know how to get there. Because he told me he was scouted during the Olympics by major league teams, but he didn’t know how to go to the United States and the only path he had was to join the NPB then. But his dream was always to somehow play in the United States, and the dream even got bigger when he played against the MLB All-Star teams. So his dream was stronger going to the States, rather than [his] disliking the establishment in Japan. Obviously he didn’t truly understand what the reservation was, the free agencies, the injuries and how he was used and all that, and that we have to discuss [to] fully understand that the system was totally different from [the] US and Japan.
Shane:
Well, I guess I’ll reframe that. So are the players, like the more recent players that come over, is there a common trait that they wanted to play in the major leagues? What is usually the motivating factor in your experience?
Don:
I think just like in any other sport, you want to play with the best, against the best. And Major League Baseball happens to be the best on this Earth. And I think you want people want the challenge and that’s how you get better and bigger and stronger. I think there has been a lot of players in Japan who was good but never wanted to play here, and they had the opportunity to come here and they did not come. So it’s not every individual that wants to come here, but some of the players that have had challenging thoughts as an athlete, very competitive.
Shane:
Yeah, yeah, I could see. Okay, all right, Chad, I’m gonna go to you for your question.
Chad:
Hey, Don, thanks for doing this. Can you kind of walk us through like the process of when a player is interested in coming over here, how he approaches an agent or how he approaches the process? And also, has there been instances of either a Japanese player coming here or an American player looking to go to Japan, where you’ve sat down and said, ‘you know what, while you have the talent, you might not be prepared for the kind of the extreme mental aspect of having to play’ and how would you approach a situation of a player [who] couldn’t handle it mentally going overseas?
Don:
First of all, you know, information for us is very important. So we would gather information from our resources about, let’s say a player in Japan wanting to go to the States, then we would approach a player and basically talk to him and find out, talk about our company, our past, our history or other players that we have that we represent; that’s how we get to know the player. There are players that we know that want to go to the States, but we do not approach them because we don’t think he’d be good enough to play in the States. So we try to go after the players that we think, and we have pretty good scouting reports on players that we get, so we know who would be fitting in to coming over here, and vice versa. We get calls, because we have a lot of players in Japan from the States through their contacts that wanted to come to Japan, but not all of them can make it over in Japan. Plus, some of the teams are not looking for players, then we have to just tell the player that nobody’s looking for his service at this time. So we try to be upfront as much as possible with the players when they ask about their ability of playing overseas, either Japan, or [the] United States, or Korea, or even Taiwan, and pretty much being honest is what we try to do with the players.
Chad:
And real quick follow-up on that; when a player does decide to come here, what kind of support system do you set up for him initially to make sure that there is family? Or that you connect them with maybe a local community, how do you approach that from [the] agent’s side? But also, it sounds like you guys care a lot about your clients. So from almost like a friend side as well.
Don:
We want to first make sure what the player wants, if he wants to be involved publicly or if he wants to be left alone, so we go from there. And then, basically we try to find the right interpreter for him, because he would need some time to get adjusted, [an] interpreter that would know the area, that would know the teams, have some experience interpreting [and] dealing with the press. But those are the things we try to support a player with. We also have a staff in our offices in Los Angeles and Tokyo that are bilingual who would help and support the family if the player brings a family over, for their housing, shopping, opening up bank accounts, how to pay rent if they’re renting a place, how to pay electrical bills; so we’ll go through all that step by step. My philosophy is not to baby them too much, because once you start doing everything for them, they’ll never learn anything, so I want them to slowly get used to, and that’s how you make the adjustment to [a] new environment and melting into something that they have to make their own decision on certain things, and melting in with other players, other families. I think that’s the quickest way to be successful making the transfer overseas, is to get melting into the society where you’re going to live and who you’re going to live with.
Shane:
Greg Thompson. You’re up next.
Greg:
Hey, Don, thank you so much for joining us tonight. If you don’t mind, I’d like to just change direction for a second and ask you about your father. When I moved to Tokyo, he was Manager of the Swallows, which was our favorite team because we lived near Jingu Stadium. I researched him and saw his just amazing statistics from his playing career and everything over [in] the Pacific League. I was just amazed at his durability and his production and the number of home runs and the RBIs he had. Can you tell me a little bit about your father’s playing career for us?
Don:
To me, it’s just amazing what he has accomplished. I think he had a good wife, that’s one of the reasons. He was a catcher, he played almost every day, he hit 656 home runs. I really can’t tell you how he [had] done it, but I know when I talked to him, he always said, ‘it’s the hungriness that I had because I came from poverty, and I had to make it. This is all I have, and this is all I have to give, and if I don’t do well, I will go back to poverty, and that’s the last thing I wanted to do.’ So he always had that complexity in his heart that drove him to do well, not only as a player, also as a manager, and also as I think a human being. I want to give a lot of credit to him because when he was a manager with [the] Nankai Hawks before that and became a manager with Yakult. He was using all these datas that nobody even thought of. Today we’re talking so much about data and everything else, he was doing it 40, 50 years ago, and it was just [an] amazing thing that he had, and his brain was like a computer. He saw a lot of things a lot of people didn’t see. He would call out pitches, he would call how the runner would steal bases as a commentator on TV, and he would predict all that and he would see a small something in these players, and that’s where his genius thinking came in. And he read pitches, that’s how he said he hit some of those home runs. And he was just an awesome genius guy in baseball.
Chad:
I didn’t realize he’d come from poverty. Can you talk a little about that?
Don:
Yes, his father was involved in the Sino War and died during the war, so he never met his dad. He left when he was I think two years old and he died when he was three and never had any sense of having a father. He has an older brother and mom, three of them lived in the Kyoto area which is a fisherman’s village. Very cold, didn’t have heaters, no air conditioning. He was working when he was in elementary school, selling newspapers, delivering newspapers. He almost never made it to high school, but his brother paid for his high school rather than going to college, he went working and paid for Katsuya’s high school. And that’s how he kept playing baseball, went with the Nankai Hawks as a tryout, and they signed him because he was a catcher from the countryside, where they were labeled as guys that would listen because they’re from the country, and they would not talk back like the city boys; he said that’s how he got signed. So he’s got a very interesting life before becoming a star with the Japanese professional baseball.
Chad:
Well, thank you. He’s a fascinating guy. And I didn’t realize how fascinating he was.
Don:
He was amazing. Great stepfather and great person. I really miss him.
Shane:
Thanks, Greg. And our condolences for him, Don, as well. Did you recall seeing him play or at least following him as when he was a player and you’re in Japan? Did you ever see him play in person?
Don:
Yes. I was at most of his games in Tokyo when he came to Tokyo when I was a kid, used to go to Korakuen Stadium, the old stadium right next to Tokyo Dome, and I used to go there every time during spring training, it’s just amazing.
Shane:
I’m sure that someone was crazy if they said you’re gonna have his last name and have him be your father.
Don:
I could never imagine.
Chad:
Did he hate the Central League and the Giants as much as I thought he did?
Don:
Probably more than you did. He was more concerned about the Tokyo Giants having so much power, because they didn’t have the draft and they were signing all of the great players. And the Pacific League was always without fans in the stadium. So he was very concerned about that.
Shane:
Thank you for that. That’s all great stuff. Gabe, I’m gonna go to you.
Gabe:
Hey Don, my question’s around the recognition and awareness of the Japanese game in North America. Although the internet has definitely helped matters, most fans still aren’t even aware of NPB in North America, until they have an import join their MLB team like an Ohtani or an Ichiro or even someone like Shun Yamaguchi. All of a sudden, everyone in Toronto was googling Yomiuri Giants and Hanshin Tigers. What would you do to better market the Japanese game in North America?
Don:
First of all, I wish I knew. I really don’t. But I have an idea, a couple ideas. I think NPB, in order to survive and to get better, I think they have to start a new league with Korea, China and Taiwan, and have this Asian Major League and market that within Asia strongly, import more players from the United States, export more players from Japan and really have an international market, where US and Japan can share and have someday the true World Series. Probably the best place would be Honolulu, right in the middle of [the] US and Japan. If Japanese baseball does not go international, I think they’ll never see the light in promoting themselves in the United States; they’ll always be secondary. I think having a quota for foreigners should be taken out. They should bring more foreigners to be more competitive, they should have more teams. And like I said, they should have this league formed within Asia to be more competitive and so they can play against Major League Baseball.
Gabe:
I’m glad you brought up the Pan-Asian league because they did have the Asia series back in like the 1990s and early 2000s, where it was between the Taiwanese League, the KBO, the NPB, and I think one point, the Australian League or the Italian League, bringing that back does seem like a relatively straightforward idea to improve the quality and awareness of baseball, also being an easy marketing rights for TV. All of a sudden you have baseball in November in December now to put on television. Thanks again Don.
Shane:
I think that pretty much everyone in this group would love to see a true World Series, and the idea of a Pan-Asian league is a really interesting one as well. Let’s hope that happens. Someone’s got to make it happen. Alright, Susan, going to you.
Susan:
Hi, Don, thank you so much for being here, great to meet you. As someone who is half-Japanese half-white American, I’m always interested in talking to other people who are mixed-race Japanese. I was wondering if you kind of feel more Japanese when you negotiate with Japanese owners and baseball executives. Do you flip the switch to an American side when you’re talking to American teams? Or does your identity even come into play when you’re negotiating for baseball players?
Don:
That’s a very interesting question, because I may have different identities at different locations. First, I can say I feel more as a Westerner when I’m in Japan. I feel more Japanese when I’m in the United States, I feel more foreigner in Japan, and I feel so Japanese when I’m in the States. When I try to negotiate things in Japan, I have to be consciously aware that I have to negotiate like a Japanese. So that kind of puts me more foreigner I guess, because I come from a foreign aspect and trying to pretend to be a Japanese. And then in the States I do just the opposite, I try to pretend to be more Western. So I would ask more and more and more in the United States, be more aggressive in asking things versus less aggressive in Japan and try to get around for asking something. So it requires more technique, I think, in negotiating with the Japanese people. It takes longer sometimes. In the States it’s like, ‘Give me this. Give me that. Yes. No. No. Yes.’ It’s a lot, to me, easier to understand. Japanese are very sometimes difficult, because when they say yes, [it] doesn’t necessarily mean yes, as you probably know, and so you have to go further down to understand it. You can’t piss them off, and sometimes they get pissed off without your real bad intention. So you really have to be careful how you handle things, making sure that they feel equally okay as you do. Those are the hard parts that I kind of learned through my getting old.
Susan:
But I imagine Japanese players would look to you as being more attractive to help them get here to the States, because you have the savvy to negotiate as an American.
Don:
Ya, sure. But still in Japan, I think we have to follow the Japanese protocol. I would go a step further, but I still have to be pretending to be more Japanese to get to my point, but I will get to the point. If I have to call them every day to get there, I will.
Susan:
And how long did it get you to find that approach? Did you have it within you with Hideo Nomo from the very beginning, or was it something that was like a slow burn up until all the [others]?
Don:
I thought I did. But when I look back, maybe I didn’t. So it’s like a slow burn, it catches up and then you kind of learn from your past experience. But I can also say this, the younger Japanese generation is a little more westernized, so you can kind of be a little more direct than the old generation. And I think a lot of the younger, professional baseball people that’s involved today come a bit from a different background than the old ownership, like the Kintetsu Buffaloes; they’re really old school people. Today you see much younger people involved in the world of sports. And because of more information today with US baseball, I think people understand a little bit more how to interact with people [in] foreign countries. So it’s been a lot easier for me to deal with Japanese people. And I think they still have my image of being a bad guy, but it’s a slow learning process. It’s a change, but I think it’s getting a lot easier now compared to 30 years ago, 25 years ago.
Shane:
Thanks, Susan. That was really interesting, I enjoyed listening in on that, especially since I’m half-Chinese, so I appreciate that. I’m not going to put the spotlight on Yuriko because I know that you’ve been on Zoom a lot recently, but she wants to know as an American, what do you know about when American agents go to Japan to negotiate, are they forgiving of their lack of feel or do they have to learn how to do things the Japanese way?
Don:
Put it this way. If I didn’t speak Japanese, things [would] have been maybe a lot different. Because I speak Japanese, conveniently I would become Japanese. And conveniently I would become a foreigner. So if you’re strictly American-Asian coming to Japan or a foreign agent coming to Japan, they respect that as somebody different from being a Japanese, but once they know I speak Japanese and I approach them in Japanese so conveniently they would consider me Japanese at a certain situation. Again, they would say, ‘oh, he does this kind of thing because he’s a gaijin. He’s a foreigner.’ So people use that conveniently. But if you’re non speaking foreigner, sometimes you get by with a lot of stuff. Sometimes it’s easier.
Shane:
Yuriko also asked about your thoughts on the WBC. Obviously, you’re a fan of the International game and you want to see more cohesion. What’s your thoughts on the World Baseball Classic?
Don:
It’s an interesting event. It’s a good concept to have a baseball World Cup. But when you look at Soccer[‘s] World Cup, you have people really competing for that win. And when it comes to baseball, it’s more like not winning, but just participation. So it’s not 100% I would say. I mean, don’t get me wrong, a lot of players involved [are] trying to win, but some of them aren’t, because of the injuries and the owners are keeping them out of playing at certain games because they’re paying a lot of money, which I understand. So they have to find something in the middle where they really compete for their country, and be like another Soccer World Cup. And if it doesn’t, then it’d just be just another carnival. And that’s fine, too.
Shane:
Yeah, it’s too bad that the teams often get in the way of the players participating.
Don:
But you have to understand they’re paying hundreds of millions to players, and if they get hurt, they have to replace them by somebody and there’s a risk there. So they’ve got to find the right combination of maybe having some kind of thing during the All-Star Break or I don’t know.
Shane:
Yeah, yeah, that’ll be a tricky one. We’ll see. Maybe the same person that figures out how to make WBC’s success can make the true World Series too. Yumi, I’m going to you.
Yumi:
I’m probably like [the only] one here that was born and raised in Japan and [living] in the US right now. But I love baseball since I was little. [Are there] any current NPB players that you would like to see or bring them over? Any players that you might be interested to work with or see?
Don:
Yeah, I think there’s a lot of players that are capable of playing in [the] United States right now.
There’s always several questions. One is, would the team allow them? And the second question is, do they really want to come? And with the current system they have, there’s a lot of freedom that’s been oppressed by the rules. So a lot of players may be wanting to come cannot come play in the States. I mean, if you look at [the] Olympics, and [the] WBC, [there are] so many Japanese medalists, they’re very athletic, they’re very globally strong, except for baseball. We only have a handful of players from Japan, where most of them are locked into a long year of reservation in Japanese baseball. And they’ve been playing with the Japanese team and never really making [it] to the United States. But every team in Japanese baseball has maybe one or maybe two players, or maybe even more in the minor league system that can come over right now and participate in Major League Baseball.
Shane:
Richard has a question about another player.
Richard:
I wanted to ask you about Tsuyoshi Shinjo. Bobby Valentine was a guest a few weeks ago and he said that he thought that Shinjo probably wasn’t used properly, he was a great defensive player and all that, but the reason he didn’t make it in MLB was because he wasn’t used properly. And of course, you can say that about American players in Major League, sometimes they’re not used well, they go to another team, and they’re great. But I was wondering what your thoughts were on Shinjo and his experience.
Don:
As you know, Shinjo is a very talented player. So when you talk about scouting tools, he has a great arm, he runs well, he can hit the long ball. I don’t know if he was used well or not, but tool-wise, he was a major league player, and he didn’t get to play every day. And today, you hardly see anybody play 162 games at the major league level. So, I don’t know, I think… these are always ifs and buts, but if he played 162 games, maybe he would have hit 25 home runs and batted .275 with 30 stolen bases, but reality [is] he didn’t, and maybe there’s a reason why he didn’t. And all I know is you have to ask the manager why he didn’t use them every day. Maybe there was something that he thought maybe another guy would do better on certain days. Today, more so when you look at data, some players don’t face certain pitching or some players don’t face certain teams because he doesn’t do well or at the stadium. So maybe they had some kind of data for him that he’d do best on certain days or in certain games in a row or I have no idea but he was a well-talented athlete. I mean, he was big, strong and had all the talent in the world. Sometimes, you know, talent doesn’t always make you successful. I know Wayne Gretzky, the great hockey player was saying ‘if you put me on a scouting report with other athletes, I won’t do well. I don’t run well. I don’t hit the ball hard well, but I certainly know how to move on the ice rink and that’s how I made myself great.’ So it doesn’t always produce success being athletic. I guess that’s the way it goes. Yeah, that’s a hard question to answer.
I hope it’s a good enough answer for you.
Shane:
Chad, I’m going to you again.
Chad:
Hi, I have a quick question. In current Major League systems, there’s such a large emphasis now on youth projection, and getting people into their system and bringing them up a certain way. Do you foresee this kind of new trend of like, wanting to get people young and getting up through their own system, do you see that as a threat to maybe the Japanese posting systems? Is there a revolution necessarily on the horizon as far as maybe a younger Japanese player really kind of testing the system, wanting to get into a minor league system at age 19, 20, and work their way up, especially a pitcher. As far as you know, working with pitching coaches and a decreased workload?
Don:
That’s a very good interesting question because, as a lot of people can see, Major League Baseball’s getting younger, and there’s been no shortage of players. They just released probably about close to 2000 players this year, because of the minor league system, a lot of teams aren’t playing because of this COVID-19 and with this said, next year, I think there’s going to be 42 minor league clubs closing [their] doors. So that alone is probably 1000 plus players without a job. And the draft is changing in the United States, so there’s going to be a lot of players coming up quick. And if they stay, then they can stay for a long time. If not, they’re going to keep bringing younger guys in and out, in and out, using the rules to send them to the minor leagues and bring him up and, and so forth and so forth. That said, and you may know this, but Major League has implemented a new rule about amateur players. The players used to be able to sign Major League contract[s] from Japan, if they’re posted, pre-25 years old, or less than six years of professional baseball. Now it’s you have to be older than 25 or you have to have six years of professional baseball in order to sign Major League contracts. And a lot of the international signings, signup bonuses are capped. So if they don’t have a certain amount of money to sign prospects from out of the country, then the limit[s] just give them a certain 300,000 or 200,000, whatever it may be. So in order for a Japanese 18-year-old kid to move over to [the] United States to sign a minor league contract, it won’t be that hard. Number one, if they’re looking for a lot of money, they’re not going to get it, because of the graduation planning is different. They have to be registered pre-signing, there’s a lot of rules and regulation that keep the guys not coming to [the] United States. For Major League Baseball’s union, that is not an important issue for the Union, for the union players about the international draft or international signings. It’s more about their own labor issues and wages and all that. So I don’t think that’s gonna really change. If it’s going to change then it has to be changed by probably some kind of lawsuit or something may happen to change that system. I personally don’t like the 25-year-old, six years’ experience because you take like, Shohei Ohtani was a top-star at 23 years old, he came in here and hit, you know, 28 home runs in his first year and was only able to make minimum and a very small signing bonus for what he was worth. So, to me that’s unfair for the players. So I think the market should be open, but unfortunately, it’s not. And how to change that, you know there’s a lot of thoughts of it, but right now, there’s no process of changing it. I don’t think it’s going to be changed for a while. I don’t know if that’s a satisfactory answer.
Shane:
Yeah. It seems like Mac Suzuki is still going to be the only guy I know to come from Japan and go through the amateur system, so you have a unique spot there with him. We’re right out of time, but I want to sneak in one question, if you don’t mind. Mark’s had his hand up for a minute. So, Mark, you’re the last one to squeeze in.
Mark:
I want to ask you, is there an issue about when you’re negotiating Japan about the non-confrontational aspect of the Japanese because I have found when I’ve been in Japan, when I’ve had a couple of issues, there’s non-confrontation, and all of a sudden becomes hard for me, I just have to keep pushing and pushing and pushing and I feel like I’m going against a cultural norm.
Don:
Yes, there’s always been non-confrontational with the Japanese negotiations. And I may have said earlier it takes time to get around, it takes more time and effort to talk about things. It’s very difficult because it’s not based upon not the reality or the fact itself, but about sometimes saving faces, caring for the other other side, and making sure that you know, they’re fairly taken care of, and so it’s a matter of balance, sometimes comes into a way of negotiation, and losing face is still very important in Japan. And those are things I learned throughout the years, that sometimes they may dish you out, but you don’t want to do the same thing against them because it comes back and haunts you some days. So I tried to be non confrontational, and try to be more on a quiet, level-headed way, whether I get things done or not. But I keep pushing it that way.
Don:
One last thing, Tazawa Rule, I think it’s stupid. There’s the same kind of rule back in Korean baseball, and one day we signed a player that left Korea, they banned the rule immediately. So I think they should ban it, they’re just killing a player for no reason. He’s got the right to go to work for anybody.
Shane
Thank you for squeezing that in, it’s a good way to end this as, of course, you’ve always been a big proponent of players’ rights, and it’s important to have people like you in the game. And I know you said a few times you hoped you answered the question well, but I’m sure you answered all the questions really well. And I really appreciate you coming on and taking the time, it was a really unique opportunity for us. And I think I speak for everyone when I say thank you very much, and we wish you luck getting through the rest of this weird year and hopefully back to normal next year. I’ll give you permission to sign off.
Don:
Thanks very much. Take care everybody. Stay safe. Bye.
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